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	<title>Comments on: Holy Minerva!  Scientists at War over Human Dignity</title>
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	<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/</link>
	<description>Progressive Voices for Progressive Times</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 02:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: George Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3719</link>
		<dc:creator>George Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 20:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3719</guid>
		<description>I answered to this blunder approx. two months ago.  As I recall, I was very, very gracious in defeat.  It was the very first comment.  As with the first to point this out, I appreciate it.  I think my mistake stems from an old college-days lecture in which I missed some details while taking my usual copious notes, and assumed that a name ending in the Latin "US" -- or "VS" -- must be Roman.  Or, to give myself some hard-to-justify credit, it's possible that the lecturer, whoever he was, got it WRO-O-O-ONG!
NOT!
 I hate to dwell on this, but durn-it, people keep FINDING it.  So yes, really, all you guys etc. who must comment on the Roman Herodotus clone, you win!  I had it coming!
G</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I answered to this blunder approx. two months ago.  As I recall, I was very, very gracious in defeat.  It was the very first comment.  As with the first to point this out, I appreciate it.  I think my mistake stems from an old college-days lecture in which I missed some details while taking my usual copious notes, and assumed that a name ending in the Latin &#8220;US&#8221; &#8212; or &#8220;VS&#8221; &#8212; must be Roman.  Or, to give myself some hard-to-justify credit, it&#8217;s possible that the lecturer, whoever he was, got it WRO-O-O-ONG!<br />
NOT!<br />
 I hate to dwell on this, but durn-it, people keep FINDING it.  So yes, really, all you guys etc. who must comment on the Roman Herodotus clone, you win!  I had it coming!<br />
G</p>
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		<title>By: PB</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3716</link>
		<dc:creator>PB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 16:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3716</guid>
		<description>Well, anyone who thinks Herodotus lived to see the Roman empire certainly has confidence in the science of longevity</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, anyone who thinks Herodotus lived to see the Roman empire certainly has confidence in the science of longevity</p>
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		<title>By: George Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3710</link>
		<dc:creator>George Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 03:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3710</guid>
		<description>The issue is over whether "social scientists" should engage in embedded advocacy and expertise work under sponsorship of huge bureaucracies with overriding goals not shared by the local people, tribes, villagers, etc. Without the trust of local people, and without adhering to the locals' perceived wants and needs, some social scientists can't continue to collect much valid information, nor can they pretend it won't be used against the locals' interests, even when it won't.  The social science fields involved become compromised through this engagement.  Regardless of the money spent on local cultural expertise, military and corporation sponsorship of social scientific work diminishes the science.  Of course the simple act of understanding and empathy with other cultures not reliant upon our own, sends many sponsors and leaders of our society into reaction against those efforts at understanding and empathy.  Case in point: recall the outcry from whining commentators and right wing politicians when Obama stated that one of his criteria for selecting a Supreme Court nominee would be his or her "empathy" toward less favored folks.
It's really not much more than that, but that says a mouthful or two.  It explains why not much if any "progress" has ever been made in international, transnational, subnation and non-national global comaraderie, kumbaya, lions bedding lambs, and the whole peace and love thing.  When our influential folks observe what respect for "other customs" entails, they reveal themselves to be against the whole kebosh.  And as far as I can tell, nobody on the Right has even considered listing precisely how Western industrial wellbeing would suffer as a result of supportable global cooperation and "empathy."
Nobody ever said social science was easy.  In fact, Einstein is supposed to have stated somewhere that it's more difficult than physics. Y'see, Einstein chose the easy way out: ground-breaking physics.
G</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue is over whether &#8220;social scientists&#8221; should engage in embedded advocacy and expertise work under sponsorship of huge bureaucracies with overriding goals not shared by the local people, tribes, villagers, etc. Without the trust of local people, and without adhering to the locals&#8217; perceived wants and needs, some social scientists can&#8217;t continue to collect much valid information, nor can they pretend it won&#8217;t be used against the locals&#8217; interests, even when it won&#8217;t.  The social science fields involved become compromised through this engagement.  Regardless of the money spent on local cultural expertise, military and corporation sponsorship of social scientific work diminishes the science.  Of course the simple act of understanding and empathy with other cultures not reliant upon our own, sends many sponsors and leaders of our society into reaction against those efforts at understanding and empathy.  Case in point: recall the outcry from whining commentators and right wing politicians when Obama stated that one of his criteria for selecting a Supreme Court nominee would be his or her &#8220;empathy&#8221; toward less favored folks.<br />
It&#8217;s really not much more than that, but that says a mouthful or two.  It explains why not much if any &#8220;progress&#8221; has ever been made in international, transnational, subnation and non-national global comaraderie, kumbaya, lions bedding lambs, and the whole peace and love thing.  When our influential folks observe what respect for &#8220;other customs&#8221; entails, they reveal themselves to be against the whole kebosh.  And as far as I can tell, nobody on the Right has even considered listing precisely how Western industrial wellbeing would suffer as a result of supportable global cooperation and &#8220;empathy.&#8221;<br />
Nobody ever said social science was easy.  In fact, Einstein is supposed to have stated somewhere that it&#8217;s more difficult than physics. Y&#8217;see, Einstein chose the easy way out: ground-breaking physics.<br />
G</p>
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		<title>By: kristie mansfield</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3705</link>
		<dc:creator>kristie mansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 21:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3705</guid>
		<description>G, I do appreciate social commentary. I am merely disgusted that with all the information and underdstanding about cultures is sidelined in the interest of business. Idiots and ideologs are allowed to make decisions that cost millions and millions of lives. Time after time. Even in this case, who doesn't know that an uncovered woman is not socially or culturally acceptable in Taliban controlled Afghanistan? So she goes out To study that culture while ignoring what is already known. Sheesh! Humanity is not advancing . My take on it is that we are too stupid to control even technology that pollutes, WMD's should be out of the question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G, I do appreciate social commentary. I am merely disgusted that with all the information and underdstanding about cultures is sidelined in the interest of business. Idiots and ideologs are allowed to make decisions that cost millions and millions of lives. Time after time. Even in this case, who doesn&#8217;t know that an uncovered woman is not socially or culturally acceptable in Taliban controlled Afghanistan? So she goes out To study that culture while ignoring what is already known. Sheesh! Humanity is not advancing . My take on it is that we are too stupid to control even technology that pollutes, WMD&#8217;s should be out of the question.</p>
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		<title>By: George Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3704</link>
		<dc:creator>George Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 14:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3704</guid>
		<description>And "K Mansfield," I hope you forgive me if your "K" stands for "Karl" and not "Kay."  I swear it was a typo.
G</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And &#8220;K Mansfield,&#8221; I hope you forgive me if your &#8220;K&#8221; stands for &#8220;Karl&#8221; and not &#8220;Kay.&#8221;  I swear it was a typo.<br />
G</p>
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		<title>By: George Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3703</link>
		<dc:creator>George Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 14:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3703</guid>
		<description>Kay Mansfield. A thoughtful rant. Welcome to the chaos of competing, thoughtful rants.

Spin creates counterspin, and what else is new? I take it you don't really believe social commentary and political opinion -- either the "mongering" or the "realist" types -- should quit hollering foul and go along to get along.  Whining is a long and hallowed tradition that may actually suffer for a while as our means of giving and taking competing whines goes through changes and the death of old media and paper you can HO-O-O-OLD....

While "empires," as you put it, have all tended toward entropy (fallen), there have always been the informed and edumuckated whiners who have enjoyed tweaking folks and pointing out what's been going wrong.  Some whiney tweakers have been blowing smoke and simply ranting in support of what drags us down in the first place, but hey, that's why the post-Magna-Carta Founding Daddies (upstanding Deists all) hammered the US constitution and other problematical documents into being: All hail the marketplace of good mixed with the not-so-good and even some lousy ideas.  That's where interesting, sometimes even constructive changes come from, not to mention the War in Iraq and WOT, when America paused for a time and allowed Neoconservative utopean idealism and 14th Century enlightenment another go.

It is, of course, not subject to debate that, as you say, "maybe this is all as it should be," and that we'll never get rid of "unsustainable excess" from nation state governments and nonstate "actors" with human prejudices and imperfections.  The debate over whether social scientists compromise themselves by embedding with military forces, is an old and nasty one, with good points on all sides.  Whether a bevy of anthropologists advise the "coalition" military on local perceptions and what locals in a war zone seem to think they want and need, or we go along without "experts," the end result always seems to be bad.  Introduce the "experts" and their own lame attempts at ethical codes are invalidated, so with the normal disaster we also lose much trust in that "expertise".  We end up losing the Powell "Doctrine" as well as a mollifying voice.

They even chose to ignore intelligence pros.  I suspect that's what softened military intel folks to accept more wild-eyed contingents of "social scientists" finally, as spurred on by General Dave.

Power is intoxicating, even for Obama.  Change is always slow, and usually not what one was expecting.  Unlike physics, societies don't operate according to pat formulae.  Obama knew this, and that may be one reason why he has appeared to keep his cool through the inevitable chaos.

But at least we can try to help amplify some voices of reason, even if we discover years from now that we were wrong too.
GT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kay Mansfield. A thoughtful rant. Welcome to the chaos of competing, thoughtful rants.</p>
<p>Spin creates counterspin, and what else is new? I take it you don&#8217;t really believe social commentary and political opinion &#8212; either the &#8220;mongering&#8221; or the &#8220;realist&#8221; types &#8212; should quit hollering foul and go along to get along.  Whining is a long and hallowed tradition that may actually suffer for a while as our means of giving and taking competing whines goes through changes and the death of old media and paper you can HO-O-O-OLD&#8230;.</p>
<p>While &#8220;empires,&#8221; as you put it, have all tended toward entropy (fallen), there have always been the informed and edumuckated whiners who have enjoyed tweaking folks and pointing out what&#8217;s been going wrong.  Some whiney tweakers have been blowing smoke and simply ranting in support of what drags us down in the first place, but hey, that&#8217;s why the post-Magna-Carta Founding Daddies (upstanding Deists all) hammered the US constitution and other problematical documents into being: All hail the marketplace of good mixed with the not-so-good and even some lousy ideas.  That&#8217;s where interesting, sometimes even constructive changes come from, not to mention the War in Iraq and WOT, when America paused for a time and allowed Neoconservative utopean idealism and 14th Century enlightenment another go.</p>
<p>It is, of course, not subject to debate that, as you say, &#8220;maybe this is all as it should be,&#8221; and that we&#8217;ll never get rid of &#8220;unsustainable excess&#8221; from nation state governments and nonstate &#8220;actors&#8221; with human prejudices and imperfections.  The debate over whether social scientists compromise themselves by embedding with military forces, is an old and nasty one, with good points on all sides.  Whether a bevy of anthropologists advise the &#8220;coalition&#8221; military on local perceptions and what locals in a war zone seem to think they want and need, or we go along without &#8220;experts,&#8221; the end result always seems to be bad.  Introduce the &#8220;experts&#8221; and their own lame attempts at ethical codes are invalidated, so with the normal disaster we also lose much trust in that &#8220;expertise&#8221;.  We end up losing the Powell &#8220;Doctrine&#8221; as well as a mollifying voice.</p>
<p>They even chose to ignore intelligence pros.  I suspect that&#8217;s what softened military intel folks to accept more wild-eyed contingents of &#8220;social scientists&#8221; finally, as spurred on by General Dave.</p>
<p>Power is intoxicating, even for Obama.  Change is always slow, and usually not what one was expecting.  Unlike physics, societies don&#8217;t operate according to pat formulae.  Obama knew this, and that may be one reason why he has appeared to keep his cool through the inevitable chaos.</p>
<p>But at least we can try to help amplify some voices of reason, even if we discover years from now that we were wrong too.<br />
GT</p>
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		<title>By: K Mansfield</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3699</link>
		<dc:creator>K Mansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 23:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3699</guid>
		<description>According to Wired, the Afghan that was killed was Loyds assistant, not the person that doused her with gas and set her aflame. 

What is wrong with calling them social scientists, rather than Human terrain analyists? Is the point you are making that over-simplification and failure to understand cultural issues going to be the end of us? Spin is the nature of greedy hegmonic interests. Its a feature, not a bug. 
Maybe this is all as it should be. Unsustainable excess brings down all empires. Seeing Obama in office, I don't beleive he can stop it, if he actually wanted to in the first place. Power is intoxicating. 

The policies or procedures haven't changed, only the face and the rhetoric. 
700 dead civilians in punjab, with 12 dead Taliban since Obama took office.
Isreali IDF assassins are picking off Gaza Farmers working their fields, Israel is still bulldozing orchards in Gaza, and homes in Jerusalem while making room for Jewish only housing developments. Settlement expansion continues, while Gazans pick through rubble and struggle to get through a single day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to Wired, the Afghan that was killed was Loyds assistant, not the person that doused her with gas and set her aflame. </p>
<p>What is wrong with calling them social scientists, rather than Human terrain analyists? Is the point you are making that over-simplification and failure to understand cultural issues going to be the end of us? Spin is the nature of greedy hegmonic interests. Its a feature, not a bug.<br />
Maybe this is all as it should be. Unsustainable excess brings down all empires. Seeing Obama in office, I don&#8217;t beleive he can stop it, if he actually wanted to in the first place. Power is intoxicating. </p>
<p>The policies or procedures haven&#8217;t changed, only the face and the rhetoric.<br />
700 dead civilians in punjab, with 12 dead Taliban since Obama took office.<br />
Isreali IDF assassins are picking off Gaza Farmers working their fields, Israel is still bulldozing orchards in Gaza, and homes in Jerusalem while making room for Jewish only housing developments. Settlement expansion continues, while Gazans pick through rubble and struggle to get through a single day.</p>
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		<title>By: George Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3672</link>
		<dc:creator>George Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3672</guid>
		<description>OOPS, sorry. His prolific writings were all Greek to me. And here all this time I've been under the impression that Herodotus had fueled a boycott against the mention of Romulus and Remus!  Those "some" to whom I attribute Herodotus starting it all after about 40 BC, clearly had decimal point problems.
GT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OOPS, sorry. His prolific writings were all Greek to me. And here all this time I&#8217;ve been under the impression that Herodotus had fueled a boycott against the mention of Romulus and Remus!  Those &#8220;some&#8221; to whom I attribute Herodotus starting it all after about 40 BC, clearly had decimal point problems.<br />
GT</p>
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		<title>By: Cornet Joyce</title>
		<link>http://www.wemagazine.org/holy-minerva-scientists-at-war-over-human-dignity/#comment-3661</link>
		<dc:creator>Cornet Joyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 00:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wemagazine.org/?p=1278#comment-3661</guid>
		<description>Well, anyone who thinks Herodotus lived to see the Roman empire certainly has confidence in the science of longevity</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, anyone who thinks Herodotus lived to see the Roman empire certainly has confidence in the science of longevity</p>
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